Alternate title: Popup navigation is evil
Jared: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:29:40 -0700
I’m blogging it right now.
Dan: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:22:00 -0700
You should blog on this, I wouldn’t mind at all.
Here’s the full conversation, in the correct order:
Dan: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:50:00 -0700
Jared I need your help. I am putting together the [sitename] site and I need a template for the wordpress site. The thing is I don’t want the site to be a real blog just a CMS for stuff.
Couple things.
When the user clicks on the share link a window pops up and I want it to just show the header (attached) and the comments of a certain post that I point it to (via the http://[sitename]/wordpress/?comments_popup=1 link). I could tinker for an hour but I thought you could do it real fast. The template you did before was cool. Just put the header on top. Just header and the text. nothing else, maybe an rss link.
The other links are going to be to wordpress pages. So when I link to them, with the pop-up window I would like the pages to have the same theme as the comments. Just header and the text. nothing else.
Very simple.
Also I am using a javascript to open the pop up windows, but I need scroll bars.
function launchc()
{
var popwin=window.open(”/wordpress/contribute/”,”Corporate2UMS”,”width=750,height=540,
screenX=0,left=0,screenY=0,top=0″);
xpos=(screen.width-750)/2;
ypos=(screen.height-540)/2;
popwin.moveTo(xpos,ypos);
}Thanks a ton.
Jared: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:10:00 -0700
Cool. I should be able to do this by tomorrow. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; I’ve been dealing with family stuff all day.
Thanks for the Flickr account by the way.
- Jared
Dan: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:04:00 -0700
I just hacked up your theme for the Kiosk. It looks okay. If you have any suggestions or anything on what should be added send them my way.
I do need the scroll bars code, because as it stands now, there is no way to scroll up/down unless they have a scroll mouse.
Something else, I would like to have a print button for the comments page. Any ideas?
Jared: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:02:00 -0700
Cool, sorry I couldn’t get to this sooner.
For scrollbars, you just need to put “scrollbars=yes” in the window open arguments, in the same place you have “width=750,height=540, ” etc.
It’s up to you, but I would say it might be better just to use regular links (which people can open in new windows if they want to), because right now they won’t be able to use the site at all unless javascript is enabled.
The javascript way to print the page is just “window.print();”, so you could make a link that does that too, although people could always just hit the print button in their browser, if it were in a normal window
Also, you can specify a completely different stylesheet to be used for printing, which is probably a good idea in this case, since you will want to print black text on white background (to conserve ink).
Thanks,
Jared
Dan: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:49:00 -0700
What is a better way to open windows like I have? If I don’t use JavaScript then popup blockers will block theme, right? I rather have it accessible for everyone JavaScript or not but I don’t want to make it a portal of links. I rather have windows open like I have it, this way it doesn’t take the reader away from the site.
How can I open a new window and set it’s size?
I think this might be the best way, although I still don’t like the toolbar, like I said it takes the user out of the ‘flow’.
Jared: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:23:00 -0700
1. Using a different CSS for printing:
You can include a separate stylesheet link with the media attribute set to “print”, and this will be used when the page is printed.
<link rel=”stylesheet” type=”text/css” media=”print” href=”print.css” />2. The pop-ups:
Some pop-up blockers might actually block the way you’re doing them now, depending on how they filter them. These are a little different since you are running the Javascript when a user clicks the link, instead of when the page loads or when the window closes (like most popups do), so the popup blockers might allow those more.You can also make regular links (<a>) always open in a new window with the TARGET=”_blank” attribute, although that doesn’t let you specify a size. Generally, the HTML snobs will look down on that, since it’s not really standards compliant, but in general they would prefer that to using javascript only links.
For setting the size of the new windows, Javascript is the only way to do it, so if that’s important, then you will have to stick with that. As I said before, the downside is that people with Javascript disabled (or otherwise not available, like on a cell-phone or PDA browser) will not be able to see any of the site.
In case you can’t tell, popups are a pet peeve of mine, and I don’t really like sites that use them as part of their design. My feeling is that people should be able to browse the site the way that they want to. If they are to dumb to figure out how to use the back button to go back to the main page, you can always include a link back to the main page in the subpages. If it is a small page (like a lot of popups are) and it would look dumb in the top-left corner with the rest of the page blank, it could always be centered in the middle of the page. If someone *wants* to open a link in a new window (or tab) almost all browsers allow you to do that, but it should be the user’s choice.
Anyway, obviously you should go with whatever you think is best for the particular site, but if it were me I don’t think that having new windows of a set size and position is worth the tradeoff of disabling the site for non-Javascript enabled browsers.
Dan: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:22:00 -0700
You should blog on this, I wouldn’t mind at all.
I prefer not to care about users who would browse the site from a phone or PDA, because who would? The people that might would either disable images, making the site useless to begin with or go to the link of there choice directly, bypassing the site altogether.
The only other way I see doing the site is with iFrames and like you hating popups I hate iFrames. They just seem to lazy of a design method.
Another thing; you prefer to have the user browse the site the way they want. I disagree a little. The point of a site, other then to give information to the user, is to display it the way and methods the designer intends. Otherwise site makers would incorporate customizable style sheets for you to choose from. I don’t see artists paint for the viewer. FYI, I am not an artist but I do have a method to my madness.
It’s not the size or position that makes me keep the windows, it’s that I prefer not to have a page displayed at 1200pix wide, they would look horrible and hard to read. Another is even though you are going to different urls I would like it to seem as if you are still at the site. I do intend to change the link outs though, like VC Star and what not, using a blank for those.
I do appreciate your feedback though and I do hope you blog this, if you don’t I will.
I got Tiger today and I have to write something about how it has a RSS screensaver, and it looks awesome. Your so jealous.
Jared: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:29:40 -0700
OK, I’m blogging it right now.
Anyway, my opinion remains that web designers should never force people to open new windows in order to navigate any site, nor require javascript in order to use the basic functionality of the page.
With this one in particular, you don’t need javascript or iframes, just regular links. If you don’t want the page text to be too wide, you can put everything inside a fixed-width div and center it on the screen.
Lots of people (myself included) use small browsers (cell or PDA) and even more either can’t or don’t want to have JS enabled. At least there should be alternate normal links, for people who would want to go directly to the URL, as you mentioned. As it is now, they would never know the direct URL for the child pages without viewing the source (which most cell browsers don’t allow).
Re: forcing users to view a site according to the designer’s intentions - I don’t put much stock in that. There are a lot of web designers who think they have a really cool design and that everyone should be forced to use it when viewing their site, but when it gets in the way of accessibility to the content itself, they have just shot themselves in the foot. The only possible exception I would make for this would be strictly art sites, where the design itself is what people are coming to see. The primary purpose of the vast majority of websites is to present the content to the user (in this case, comments left by other users, for example). This is exactly why users can resize the text of the page in most modern browsers, and some (like Firefox) even allow users to specify their own stylesheets for just this purpose.
17 Comments
i agree with jared 100%. additional reasons to hate js popups: can’t bookmark, can’t deep link, can’t print, can’t open links in tabs, adds to desktop clutter, et cetera.
make a nice header that matches the homepage design of the site and slap it at the top of the interior pages with a fixed width for the text below.
by the way, just to be obnoxious, websites aren’t art. just like anything, they can be used to create art, but they are not in and of themselves art. otherwise, i’d have to find a new career!
No matter what, I prefer it the way it is because I don’t see it as a big deal. Only ‘web snobs’ don’t like it and with the responses I have received the score is:
2 against (you and Stryker)
6 like the site
I really still do not see a problem with how I did it, except when you go to the VC Star or Paypal, because you are limited to that window and it’s not very secure for the user. This I do intend to change.
If we pick the site apart, the share link is exactly like a popup comments window. It’s good for blogs but not a website. The gallery is fine since it just shows the slide show. The video link is standard, 90% of all video links end up in a popup. The links popup has the problem because it directs you to outside links but not a very big deal since I will either change it or pull the info from the site since they will be going down soon.
So what is the difference between a comment popup or a video popup then what I have done.
And other then a standards issue for all the ‘web snobs’ which is really all relative, what reason is there? The PDA/cell phone reason doesn’t effect me because like I said PDA/cell phone users disable images.
Don’t bring up anything else in the site, like slices. Also I never meant for you to blog all the emails, just the last two with the issue at hand, excluding the fact it was for [sitename] but I guess it’s cool. I wouldn’t image a lot of people reading it since it’s so long.
Stryker:
In this case why would you bookmark when it is just one click away from the homepage? I would never do that, it’s easier to bookmark one link rather then 10 for one site.
Deep link, WTF?
You can print, if you add it like I did.
Tabs, there are no linkouts, except the ones I intend to change. I don’t think Jared uses tabs.
Desktop clutter, it’s one window. And I rather alt+tab; JK, Jared would.
Anything else?
I would like to here some real comments, no offense, you guys don’t count, because the site isn’t supposed to be a great web site standard or even art. It is supposed to deliver information in an easy manner that might look cool because all the graphics he made.
Sorry about the e-mail copies, I thought you were talking about the whole discussion, and I didn’t want to pull anything out and accidentally quote you out of context. I just took out all references to the site name itself (from the post and comments), just in case someone is searching they don’t get sidetracked by this. Let me know if there’s any other parts you want me to take out from the e-mail quotes.
Just to be clear, I wasn’t trying to criticize the site itself, just the specific issue of javascript-only links. Actually, I hadn’t even looked at any of the other sections besides the comments.
For me, it just comes down to weighing the positives and negatives of either option. In this case, I see it as a trade off between a style preference (having sub-pages open in a new window) versus an accessibility / usability issue (with some users being locked out of using the site at all).
Sure, cell phone / pda users aren’t a big part of the market, and they could probably just wait till they get back to their normal computer to read the comments. But what about people who have to use a limited-capability browser (like a screen reader) because of a physical handicap?
Also, knowing Microsoft and their frequent security issues, it’s not that unlikely that a new security issue will be uncovered and the only solution for secure browsing in IE (at least until a patch is released) is to turn off Javascript. This has actually happened before.
yeah,i wasn’t dising the site itself either, just js popups. did all those six people say they dig the pop ups? because you could put my vote in the “likes the site” section and just file my opinion about js popups under “web snob.”
i hate the popup comments on my own blog. the only reason i stuck with them is because blogger comments suck. i still don’t like that you have to click twice to comment on blogger. even still, i would change over on my blog except i would have to come up with page titles for all 800+ of my posts. i’ll wait until i move to wordpress.
i would want to bookmark the comments section, not the whole website. i’ve seen the rest of the site, so why should i go through the homepage just to read the comments? same thing with deep linking, if i want someone to see a comment i have to give them a url and then tell them “click here, then here…” instead of just giving them a url and saying, “check this, yo.”
i read new websites by clicking every link in the site with the ctrl key down so that i can visit each page in the site consecutively by closing tabs. that way i don’t have to return to the homepage once i’ve been there once. click wise it’s all the same, but visually, when i already have a dozen different programs open, an extra browser window makes a difference. you can’t argue against this point.
No, I knew you guys were not criticizing against that particular site. I know you were talking mostly about the concept of using popups to navigate a site.
In this case though I still don’t get the issue. Because the VC Star doesn’t give you another window for the haloscan comments. I see the issue with bookmarking, sort of, but that could be resolved with a bookmark link, then if you really don’t want to use the popups you can use the bookmark.
Another reason that I didn’t want to use full windows is the url issue, people will try to navigate to the around the urls and not the site. And if they went to the wordpress site it isn’t set up, making me have to do another page, that doesn’t serve a purpose. This could be resolved though with a simple .htaccess file but I know how to do windows not .htaccess files to redirect.
The one thing that I keep reiterating is the linking outside of the window which is a hassle. Especially if I just create another popup for the link that goes outside of the site.
You know if I get some feedback saying it’s hard to navigate, then I will change it but for the reasons you are giving me it’s just your personal preference. A websnob personal preference.
With that said I still might change it if I have time to create new templates for the pages. And I would not center them, I just would send them to the left side with a big margin on the right, or whatever so it’s to the left and doesn’t span the page. And then I would create a .htaccess file to hide the real urls. If you guys want to help that would be great.
You bitches happy?
I changed it so the film and the gallery pop up only.
Why the sudden change of heart?
Well I forgot about the Kiosk. But even with the Kiosk you cannot open the Gallery and video but I might change that too, I have to think about it first.
The gallery is something I probably will not do because I do not want the user to know it’s “outside” and also see that it’s my gallery they are looking at. And I already tried Gallery but hate the set up becaue I kept getting errors with uploading.
Jared can you hack that flickr page so I can use it with my own template. Or even Iframe it so you can only see the slideshow? But I do like how people can comment if they go to the set. I don’t know what I am going to do.
As you can tell.
riveting.
=)
Dan, you are great.
But how will they ever get back to the home page once they’ve gone to the comments page, unless they’ve mastered the secret internet technique of using the back button?
Well, how do I assign a url to a div? I tried just wraping the header with a link, like this <a></a>, but that didn’t work.
Help me please. Can also you help me create a .htaccess file or throw me in the right place?
Can also you?
What an idiot.
Oh wait…
here i am throwing you:
the easy way:
Redirect permanent OLDURI NEWURI
the fun way:
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/mod_rewrite.html
or:
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/mod/mod_rewrite.html
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/misc/rewriteguide.html
I believe the link has to actually be inside the div tags. Or you could always use onclick javascript for the div - just kidding.
I was just joking about the link back to the main page; people should know how to use the back button. If they don’t, they probably need a link that actually says “Home Page” or something like that, rather than figuring out to click on the header.
As for the .htaccess file, I think wordpress uses this for the permalink structure, so you probably already have one set up in your WP install. If that one is weird, you may try looking here.
you and your tiny urls…the ultimate google busters.
Google (and other search engines) should be smart enough to process tinyurls. Although, now that I look at it, I’m not sure why I would need to TinyURL something just to add it as a link in my own blog.
soon there will be no more tiny tiny urls! see why at tinyurl.com/j32indl8l2nlksdlu3rlj
That’s a bit long for a “tiny” url; is that what you were trying to say? I think it will be a quite while before they need to be that long; you can express quite large numbers relatively succinctly with a base-36 system. I think right now they are only four characters after the slash.
They are definitely useful for some things, probably not so much for blogs.
The best use for them that I have found is for referencing directions (Yahoo, mapquest, etc.) on a printed piece (especially a rave-card size) where you have limited space to work with but you need to explain something that’s fairly detailed.